tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post7709420751406928271..comments2023-12-31T00:57:46.133-08:00Comments on New Leafs: Serious Play: The Occupy Movement and the Twin Horns of Oppression & RevolutionJasunhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-14750572828872051442012-02-24T12:28:04.671-08:002012-02-24T12:28:04.671-08:00I must say, I agree with your view that the consci...I must say, I agree with your view that the consciousness shift is going to occur whether humanity wants it or not. However, I think that a lot of the occupiers might already be on a wavelength similar to yours. While there are definitely a lot of people in OWS demanding a socialist utopia, there seems to be a contingent hellbent on unironic freedom. Inside this magazine are a fairly compelling list of demands:<br /><br />http://otccmagazine.com/current-issue/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-52487712185092149762011-12-16T00:04:43.905-08:002011-12-16T00:04:43.905-08:00Interesting - post and comments! Thank you each! K...Interesting - post and comments! Thank you each! Kephas, in your article you raise much that touches on a vague 'take' I have on OM that I've not articulated because I'm not sure what I want to say. As I pay attention to OM and all else that's going on in the world, what do I 'sense'? What's this all about?<br /><br />I do believe we've come some way in the last few thousand years. We've carried seeds of our own destruction, and have continually made brutality manifest. But we've also carried seeds unrecognized or dismissed as irrelevant during that time. Empathy, cooperation, and inclusiveness have barely been tried as an intentional blend. It was only late in the 20thC that "human potential" became wide-spread as a movement in the general population, and with it, a broadly embraced quest for 'enlightenment'. It was individuals who made the search, and generally they've held to a view that the quest is intended primarily to serve the individual. <br /><br />Sometimes I wonder if OM has shifted the highly individualized focus of the human potential movement (which implies search for enlightenment) to an intentional cooperative effort. I think it may be true that, without abandoning commitment to 'individual' change from within, it is necessary to ease the way for more individuals to find 'the enlightenment experience' by establishing societal systems that are less brutalizing. It may be that our our inability (due to ignorance) to serve one another's well-being is a factor in our "inevitable corruption".<br /><br />I especially appreciate the work OM has done with consensus democracy, (and wonder - since it's 'inefficient' - if they can stay with the underlying principles.) I also appreciate their efforts to practice non-hierarchical inclusion, and know it's complicated; non-hierarchical inclusion has never been successful as a principle in large systems of human organization.<br /><br />Re OM, I've used the metaphor of a tide coming in - wave upon wave. We've had such waves before; we've been trying to sort out who we are, to understand our corruption, for several thousand years. OM and the entire global uprising against entrenched hierarchical systems may be relatively temporary. <br /><br />In any case, if the metaphor is apt for the wave pattern, there will be another. We're not finished, not even if, in the next 10 years, we arrive at an 'improved' system. We still don't know ourselves; we still don't practice easing the material path for one another in order that they/we may more easily heal 'soul' wounds. <br /><br />That said - I don't dismiss the possibility that larger forces are at work than we could possibly fathom. The above is, however, where I've decided to 'settle' with regards to OM. It's a diverse group of people, with many motivations, some barely compatible. <br /><br />(My take).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-22008297481845897932011-12-01T00:45:18.448-08:002011-12-01T00:45:18.448-08:00Coming a bit late to this discussion, but thought ...Coming a bit late to this discussion, but thought I might add to it anyway. I think much the same about the OWS, that they believe themselves transforming the world, but if given the power to change what they would, the end would only be more governmental power, which only leads to more oppressive coercion. Whether their actions are symptomatic of a more profound, systemic shift of the unconscious forces that drive most of our collective actions, is another thing entirely. I would certainly like to believe that we are at the cusp of a fundamental shift, some end and some beginning, unlike anything we can fathom, into some different state of existence that is more healthy for the Earth and People. I see glimmers of such a shift here and there, but only glimmers, and not enough to convince me that such a shift is imminent.<br /><br />Coincidently, as to the comments, I owned a van once, which I called Chiron. I was living in it at times, 1999-2001, in the time of my Saturn's return. I gave it away in favor of a 2006 Toyota Tacoma, which was one of the most egotistical, profoundly stupid decisions of my adult life. I am very fond of the Promethean myth as well. It has not heretofore occurred to me to equate his actions with hubris. About that, I'm not convinced. Did he act out of self-interest, or in service? I have always thought his theft of fire from the gods, and giving it to us, prevented Zeus from destroying us, as he was intending to do. And yet here we are, on the seeming verge of destruction, again. Is it hubris, to steal from the gods, to prevent the destruction of humanity? Or to want to? Even knowing, that saving humanity will not necessarily mean humanity will do a damn thing with that gift?<br /><br />And then I walk back to your point that the universe simply is, and the only thing to do is get aware and interact with it playfully, even if that sometimes may involve poking the beast...and now it is 2:43 and something like hubris that I am still awake.<br /><br />www.offthegridmpls.blogspot.comWilliam Hunter Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03659156353754825272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-33003818093286825472011-11-30T06:05:22.308-08:002011-11-30T06:05:22.308-08:00'A person might appear to be a total dick to u...'A person might appear to be a total dick to us if they were picking up and reflecting back at us our own disowned patterns.'<br /><br />Funny how the words 'total dick' and 'idiot' are pretty much synonymous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-68056210793887456922011-11-29T20:37:39.383-08:002011-11-29T20:37:39.383-08:00- http://tinyurl.com/6ntwk5t - To me, worrying abo...- http://tinyurl.com/6ntwk5t - To me, worrying about what is Enlightenment or trying to discuss it in language is the antithesis of "hitting the mark." Like "chewing on ball bearings?" Why not [and I'm telling myself this] just go into the space of the heart? Wouldn't surrender definitely include surrendering a desire for attainment, at some future moment, of spiritual accomplishment? Wouldn't one just concentrate on spiritual disciple? Path = the Way etc.?Marg Veritehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15987970310263201023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-56438974103726845072011-11-29T20:22:14.218-08:002011-11-29T20:22:14.218-08:00I think the priests of yore placed a red cap, poin...I think the priests of yore placed a red cap, pointed, on their heads to either signify the Penis or the Liver. The Phrygian Cap. I guess ... if it's the Liver it'd be like a "tin-foil hat" - used to filter impurities from entering the head / mind? - http://tinyurl.com/ckmc9x5 -Marg Veritehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15987970310263201023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-50959417083896213042011-11-29T12:55:23.494-08:002011-11-29T12:55:23.494-08:00"I agree about letting go, but don't thin..."I agree about letting go, but don't think that would of necessity have any bearing on how a person behaved, or rather, on how other people might favorably or unfavorably perceive that behavior."<br /><br />can we trust our instruments to measure anything besides their own behavior? Don;t we have to be enlightened to recognize the same in someone else - or to have let go to know what letting go looks like, etc? A person might appear to be a total dick to us if they were picking up and reflecting back at us our own disowned patterns.<br /><br />But another part of me says No, serenity and lightness can neither be faked nor concealed, and if it's not there, keep looking.Jasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-21322766209524658562011-11-29T12:49:06.771-08:002011-11-29T12:49:06.771-08:00is there an enlightened person in the house?
Eos:...is there an enlightened person in the house?<br /><br />Eos: I don't see the ego (ie false identity) depending on the body or vice versa. On the contrary I see the body as the true identity which not only doesn't need the false ID (ego) to survive but can only really thrive without it.<br /><br />"Is that because enlightenment has no real interest in the temporal?"<br /><br />Is enlightenment an entity, with interests and preferences? Consciousness goes where it can. Nature abhors a vacuum, but God just loves one!<br /><br />"We just think, our egos just think, that we've come back to this state. But maybe we simply have to finish what we've started here, enshrined, or entombed, in this body, and whatever others may follow, depending on our patterns, but none of that is of any consequence to the enlightened true self because it's all IN TIME and the true self exists both within and without time."<br /><br />Yes. But what's the point? I never used to use the word enlightenment at all - I used the word unplugging instead. They mean the same thing to me. The latter is a bit TOO concrete and literal, coz it comes from a movie, and the former is too vague and abstract, because it hasn't happened to us yet so we can only imagine what it might mean. It may not be a literal "goal" in that it isn't an end point but a starting point. Yet it is also, I am pretty sure, A TURNING POINT. <br /><br />To quote Kafka: "From a certain point onward there is no longer any turning back. That is the point that must be reached."Jasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-21519797690130468522011-11-29T10:58:16.605-08:002011-11-29T10:58:16.605-08:00Good riff Kephas!
Here's my 2 Canadian cents:...Good riff Kephas!<br /><br />Here's my 2 Canadian cents:<br />The collective 'ego' is feeling the sting of injustice, and that's a good thing ."Wild idealism" judges actions according to what is 'appropriate' -- and that's a good thing. Once 'idealism' is born there is no shoving it back, no matter how immature it may seem its outward expression. <br /><br />Eos, you ask "what if perpetual state of enlightenment is a red hearing"?<br /><br />Not so much, not for those of us whose Soul-awakening is complete. At this stage we seem very ordinary.<br /><br />If curious? In my blog spiritspeaks-theofilia.blogspot.com I write about what this process is like.Theofiliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01672972031937849741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-32227752167121018712011-11-28T20:03:26.187-08:002011-11-28T20:03:26.187-08:00Good idea, Pueokeokeo!
I like the article, I lik...Good idea, Pueokeokeo! <br /><br />I like the article, I like the debate/discussion that follows, have a lot of things I COULD say, but won't for now... I also looked through some of tinyurl links and the comments therein, and liked that as well (maybe you should get a facebook-ish 'like' button!), really reminds me of certain elements of some of the old discussions we used to have J. <br /><br />Could offer a lot of commentary on that as well, modified by 'evolving' through 'my patterns' and 'living my life' of course... <br /><br />Which brings me to what I did want to comment on: Patterns and enlightenment. Some questions. Briefly: What if a perpetual state of enlightenment is a red herring? What if such a thing can only occur perpetually (if at all) when the ego bonds have been thoroughly dismantled (i.e. the body has ceased all functioning)? What if we are all already enlightened and have forgotten? This thread of thought is not as wishful or lazy as it might appear on the surface. What if enlightenment only occurs to embodied, ego-bonded nodes of consciousness in discrete instances? You know when you reconnect with your other and feel empty and vast and full and impossible? Is that because enlightenment has no real interest in the temporal? We just think, our egos just think, that we've come back to this state. But maybe we simply have to finish what we've started here, enshrined, or entombed, in this body, and whatever others may follow, depending on our patterns, but none of that is of any consequence to the enlightened true self because it's all IN TIME and the true self exists both within and without time. Maybe, like perpetual motion, perpetual enlightenment in the earthly realm is (thus far) little more than a carrot at best, a red herring at worst. <br /><br />Maybe the path to enlightenment is not only IN the patterns, but IS the patterns. Which is why "the real thing might appear as tho the person had not changed much at all" minus the value judgements of what is or isn't 'pleasant'...<br /><br />I agree about letting go, but don't think that would of necessity have any bearing on how a person behaved, or rather, on how other people might favorably or unfavorably perceive that behavior. <br /><br />I was just thinking, thought I'd share and reflect and get reflected at and hopefully shared with...<br /><br />word verification is 'undstly'Eosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-60484215167528732322011-11-28T11:26:54.839-08:002011-11-28T11:26:54.839-08:00What about Occupying Madison Avenue and those mas...What about Occupying Madison Avenue and those master advertising executives who basically are the henchmen of the Wall Street bankers? If this happens then things really might get cookin in the realm of our collective shadow-work that is just getting underway again. It is the henchmen who are paid to keep us in the dark -- to maintain the shiny facade of what is being sold to us -- to keep us mesmerized so that the elite can keep the power and wealth and then , in turn, pay the advertising execs really well.pueokeokeohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889540544397631813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-63142837803414930442011-11-27T07:07:28.869-08:002011-11-27T07:07:28.869-08:00One would first have to accept your idea of enligh...One would first have to accept your idea of enlightenment, which is contrary to my own, which is that enlightenment = liberation, the dissolution of the false self and of all attachments to such patterns which you imagine being acted out. So, if someone had an awakening and was still acting out their patterns, as I observe at work with JdR, then (it seems to me) that would not be enlightenment but something else. Paradoxically, in my limited experience, a false enlightenment entails assuming the airs of a new, more detached self, while the real thing might appear as tho the person had not changed much at all - assuming they were pleasant enough people pre enlightenment (which I would assume, if enlightenment can only occur in a state of letting go).Jasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-56309950357025422172011-11-27T06:53:51.753-08:002011-11-27T06:53:51.753-08:00So my point was,I was wondering if someone from th...So my point was,I was wondering if someone from the East who had freed himself from false identity, would have a higher or purer grade of enlightenment in the sense of their serene nature showing through, than someone from the West, who had freed themself from false idfentity, but was still quite grossly acting out their dross.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-40379538304502732202011-11-27T01:58:24.917-08:002011-11-27T01:58:24.917-08:00A bit off topic from the original post but I was i...A bit off topic from the original post but I was interested in this from one of the comments '..if there is a natural state of “enlightenment” that entails freedom from the false identity-virus of “ego,” then either we are free of it or we are not free. I would question the assumption that there are gradations in-between enlightenment and unenlightenment, and that we are all somewhere on a scale or bell curve of awareness.'<br /><br />I think it's possible for a person to be 'free from the false identity-virus of "ego"' but still act like an idiot for a lot of the time just out of sheer habits. I think in the East where meditation and simple lifestyle is encouraged some purity of mind will happen if a person is free from ego identification or not, wheras in the West our minds are somehow more tainted or infested.(vasanas I think is the hindu term) I think ideally these tendancies would naturally fall away with time depending on how deeply ingrained or how possesed one had been,and a more blissfull silence would naturally take it's place, remaining aware rather than judging seems to be the process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-15991561804872745962011-11-25T17:56:41.150-08:002011-11-25T17:56:41.150-08:00As long as Mrs. Pueky is OK with being a bile-rece...As long as Mrs. Pueky is OK with being a bile-receptor...Jasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-83502254127026664212011-11-25T17:43:50.910-08:002011-11-25T17:43:50.910-08:00"So bile is not sin-anonymous with anger? As ..."So bile is not sin-anonymous with anger? As you may know, Pueky, in Chinese healing tradition, the liver is said to store anger, and the balancing energy is that of forgiveness. I think humor might work even better – which is the energy of “nothing to forgive.” I wish! "<br /><br />Bile is not synonymous with anger if the anger is embodied, which simply meanz that I would be doing my job as the liver when I live in such a way without care -- accepting my fate, not as the center (the heart) but the as the slab of drab (quite a mundane organ) known as the liver. Can I be the liver beautifully? This is the question. I only can, I suppose, if I don't resist the bile (self-hate), as well as don't love the bile (self-worship).<br /> <br />I'm a bile making machine. Now fuck off ... or be broken down.pueokeokeohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889540544397631813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-27741315902269302292011-11-25T14:38:37.346-08:002011-11-25T14:38:37.346-08:00"I picked up on a bit of self-judgment/condem..."I picked up on a bit of self-judgment/condemnation and wanted to cheer you up. But this could totally be just projection on my part."<br /><br />It could be; then again, it could not be. Throw a stone in a lake, wherever it lands you'll hear a splash.<br /><br />It's definitely my aim to close the gap between me and my audience, and between both of us and the subject matter at hand.<br /><br />We're all studying lights in that mirror.Jasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-66675970197660786342011-11-25T13:21:13.174-08:002011-11-25T13:21:13.174-08:00I liked the tone of this article. Some of the olde...I liked the tone of this article. Some of the older ones had sort of a distance between you and the reader. This one gave me more of an impression of you standing amongst the audience. Maybe because I seemed to intensely relate to much of it.<br /><br />Anyway, the image in my head from the OWS movement is a man standing in front of a mirror, with lights moving across it. The lights reflect off the mirror, attracting and absorbing the attention of the man and giving him the temporary impression that the scenery is changing. But from an outside perspective nothing is moving at all, it is just a guy standing in front of a mirror, as it's always been.<br /><br />As I'm typing it out, it sounds suspiciously like Plato's allegory, hehe.<br /><br />And for the record, I don't think that even purely "egotistical" movements and actions are quite what they appear to be, because in the end everything that happens seems to come not from our own will, but from the will of something greater that we don't understand. We are not in control of the show, so we don't need to hate ourselves for what we have done, or failed to do. <br /><br />I only mention that because I picked up on a bit of self-judgment/condemnation and wanted to cheer you up. But this could totally be just projection on my part.<br /><br />Anyway great article, it got me thinking.BrandonDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11505996871283391564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-13169364804642225522011-11-24T16:08:47.035-08:002011-11-24T16:08:47.035-08:00'Trying to change the world strengthens the il...'Trying to change the world strengthens the illusion of there being a world to change.'<br /><br />Couldn't you also argue that trying to change one's inner world of beliefs and assumptions etc also only strengthens the illusion of there being an identity to change. I mean shouldn't you engage in the same way for both your inner and outer worlds otherwise you create more of a division between them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-66600173164705776042011-11-24T12:34:09.625-08:002011-11-24T12:34:09.625-08:00Baron Moth says:
I think that we are not always t...Baron Moth says:<br /><br />I think that we are not always trying to persuade. I would say we are trying to form communities, to enlarge our sense of identificaation with the universe and with our ego. Sometimes it is healthy for the ego to be agreed with, for affirmation to take place and sometimes it is good that their be disagreement and therefore growth as long as it is in the communal spirit. We are both ego and observer of that ego and both are necessary for grokking the divine, I think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-70094897255370120622011-11-24T09:53:18.339-08:002011-11-24T09:53:18.339-08:00Touche.
I just had this conversation with a frien...Touche.<br /><br />I just had this conversation with a friend, who thinks that we are always trying to persuade others, and that even an invitation is an attempt to persuade. JdR said that we use the voice when we wish to persuade. I respectfully disagree, but I may just be in denial.<br /><br />"it's simplest to state, for me, that I have become more aware over time of the ways which I use language, and other means, as a way to persuade others and that this is really a way to control, and that it has only brought grief, in the end however, as a writer, i am obviously in the business of persuasion my wish is for it to be playfully done and not in earnest"<br /><br />To your own comment I'd counter that people are not objects and that communicating my POV isn't necessarily an attempt to change anyone but only to engage with them. Yes, there's part of me that wants you all to agree and tell me, 'Yes, Kephas, you nailed it!', and that feels great when that happens - on occasion. But there's also part of me that wants to engage in discussion, and that requires disagreement to do so, and a part of me that likes being opposed, and a part that just likes to play with ideas, and so on.Jasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-54785352252943450132011-11-24T09:39:14.309-08:002011-11-24T09:39:14.309-08:00'Trying to change the world strengthens the il...'Trying to change the world strengthens the illusion of there being a world to change.'<br /><br />But it's ok for you to try to change people's understanding,isn't that the same as trying to change the world? Doesn't that strengthen the illusion of there being other people to change? According to your arguement shouln't you look at the message of 'people are unenlightened' and wonder what that means in terms of your inner distortions rather than try to change it. <br /><br />You said yourself you're trying to change people - 'I try to find new ways to say it so that people won't immediately dismiss it as a cliche.'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-40631797151278921512011-11-24T08:39:38.771-08:002011-11-24T08:39:38.771-08:00From dialogue with MV:
To be clear, when I say t...From dialogue with MV: <br /><br />To be clear, when I say that we are all equally oppressed, here’s my reasoning: if there is a natural state of “enlightenment” that entails freedom from the false identity-virus of “ego,” then either we are free of it or we are not free. I would question the assumption that there are gradations in-between enlightenment and unenlightenment, and that we are all somewhere on a scale or bell curve of awareness . In which case, everyone who is not enlightened, i.e., in their natural state of being and free from the foreign installation of the false ID, is equally oppressed. I didn’t spell it out before because I figured anyone could simply ask, if they wanted to know, and because I didn’t want to get into “flyer minds” and matrix-terminology, or talk about enlightenment, as these are all things that are open to multiple interpretations. As, evidently, is the idea of “oppression.”<br /><br />In the end we can only base our opinions on our experience, and mine is that, unpleasant as externally oppressive circumstances may be, they do not necessarily increase my sense of inner oppression, and can even reduce or resolve an inner blockage, over time. Hence the idea that people’s circumstances need to be improved to increase their awareness, while there’s some truth in it (a sick body usually leads to a sick mind, so to speak), it’s not an absolute truth, IMO, and can even be the reverse. (When we are comfortable and content, we tend to slip into mechanical behavior or ego inflation.)<br /><br />I have never proscribed yoga or meditation techniques, going inward or withdrawing from the world, as a means to become more aware. What I’m proscribing is seeing the external problems we are engaged with, local or global, as reflecting our own inner distortions, and so embracing them as true teachers. Do not kill the messenger. In this case, the world is the messenger. Trying to change the world strengthens the illusion of there being a world to change. There is no external world of objects. There is only energy in constant flux and flow, and our perception of that energy. It’s our perception that makes the world, and nothing else.Jasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-84624626827646182782011-11-24T07:33:49.121-08:002011-11-24T07:33:49.121-08:00More that I try to find new ways to say it so that...More that I try to find new ways to say it so that people won't immediately dismiss it as a cliche.Jasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06645623536130682696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20312680.post-25184322733931976452011-11-24T07:13:51.785-08:002011-11-24T07:13:51.785-08:00Kephas says -'Unfortunately it has become such...Kephas says -'Unfortunately it has become such a cliche that no one seems to take it seriously anymore.'<br /><br />Which sort of suggests you don't take it seriously either, (unless you think you're the only one that does,) so much easier to just talk about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com