Saturday, January 31, 2009

The Secret of Happiness

"Enlightenment is only for those who are tenderly OK with endless suffering"

-John DeRuiter

As for the rest of us....

16 comments:

zane said...

Enjoyed the first part of this interview.

Levenda: “What happens, to a person, under a program like this…where, your unconscious is hijacked as you say, and your unconscious is now fulfilling, carrying out orders, for a government, for a government agenda committing murder or mayhem of some kind…what is the condition of that human soul, that individual human soul…”

While I enjoy the work of Mr. Levenda, and am glad you did this interview, I find his discourse very Ericksonian….(the above for e.g.)…stay awake, be full of care. I hope he wasn’t trying to use “someone's” unconscious to trigger anything.

I also find his use of the past tense very interesting. And why do so many focus on the more recent past of the Korean War, the “ended” (implied) programs such as ARTICHOKE, BLUEBIRD, MK-ULTRA? I kind of think sometimes that the push back to the recent past serves the function of implying both “not before that” and “not now.” The “not before that” keeps us from considering the “always has been” and the “recent past” keeps us from considering the continuation of these programs.

I have a hard time accepting the idea, though it’s interesting and may be the case at times, that the “ruling elite” or their operatives are working strictly out of their detachment from their own unconscious and using the manipulation of the unconscious of others in some sort of compensation. I am much quicker to think that they are aware of what they are doing and to a certain extent aware of the contents of their own unconsciousness. Maybe we just need to be more precise when talking about the possible levels of the unconscious, something that may be a little difficult to do, in that I think the “unconscious” is a huge multilayered field and nailing down which level is working, could get difficult.

Levenda was in Malaysia at the time of the 9/11 working huh? Why didn’t you ask him what he was doing there? I was in Korea (and still am). Here we didn’t get to see folks flying from the buildings either. I hesitate to give you my first reaction, but my na├»ve assumption at first was that it was accomplished by “the foreign” in reaction to US foreign policy…a kind of Ward Churchill-esqe “chickens” programming rising to the surface. However one may emotionally react to that assumption, that programming say, may vary according to one’s acceptance of the status quo, but it is interesting to me that as an American that seemed to be my programming.

Why do you think Levenda tried so hard to stay away from, or even downplay the magicians and their helpers (hung out to dry or not), just to emphasize the function? I mean, yeah, the function, or the magical goals, were and are important…but they are also pretty darn obvious for anyone who with a relative open mind starts to look into it. I would rather have had his magical acumen focused on the mechanics of the working and hear his take on those particular working groups.

Ok…anyway, enjoyed the show, and again looking forward to the second half.

aeolus kephas said...

thanks Zane, for the thoughtful comments

i also curious about what PL talking about, Malaysia, but didn't want to break flow of interview

auroragirl said...

Perhaps I am confused. Lavenda seems to know all about magic, sorcery, Masonic Sorcery Theater, the initiatory practices of secret societies, etc. and yet he downplayed those aspects of 911, and spoke as if Bush and the Boyz simply took advantage of an opportunity that just kind of presented itself. But isn't the diabolical genius of Masonic Sorcery Theater the way it causes cognitive dissonance...one part of the mind knows 911 was an inside job while the other part doesn't want to accept what the other part knows to be true? So, if 911 WASN'T an inside job, where does its power to "change the world" come from? Planes hitting office buildings don;t change the world. Buildings falling down, no matter how tall, don't change the world. Even buildings falling down because they've been hit by planes flown by terrorists don't change the world. But buildings being disintegrated by exotic EM weaponry in broad daylight on broadcast quality footage would change the world, wouldn't it? I think 911 gets its world changing power precisely from the fact that it WAS a conspiracy; it WAS an act of Masonic Sorcery Theater, and it WAS a display of mind numbingly powerful electromagnetic weaponry and at some level, everybody knows it.

And the 911 truth movement is international in scope...911's power is not just an Americocentric phenomenon.

aeolus kephas said...

yes i agree, but i didn't want to derail the conversation by challenging PL on this, esp. not on our very first meeting. With your permission I'll send him your observations, however, and see what he responds (if anything).

auroragirl said...

Hi aeolus. I'm not quite sure whether you are talking to Zane or to me. If it is to me, you have my permission. And I was not being critical of your interviewing style or skills...I understand that an interviewer must not alienate his guest. I was just so surprized by the disconnect between Mr. Levenda's area of expertise and his neglect of the glaring MS of 911 (I especially feel this way since I've checked out his blog!). It almost seemed like he was accepting or endorsing the "official version" and making excuses for BushCo, and this in light of their known Nazi connections, etc.

By the way, I am looking forward to the second part of this interview very much.

Sounder said...

zane wrote…
“I am much quicker to think that they are aware of what they are doing and to a certain extent aware of the contents of their own unconsciousness.”

I agree that a certain class does know what they are doing. People are controlled by keeping them connected to reactive mind involvement. Since the assassins and before, extremism and psychopathy is rewarded.

So I say again, negative relations between order and liberty create problems (profits), while positive relation’s only produces happiness and contentment.

Peter Levenda said...

Greetings!

Yes, I am aware that the general community of conspiriologists is upset with me over the fact that I have not jumped on the 911 bandwagon, but I believe that focusing on the areas of concern over the actual or purported conspiracy of 911 will make us lose focus on the aftermath. Regardless of how the WTC came down, it was its aftermath that doomed a generation and robbed us of our privacy, made us vulnerable to unlawful search and seizures, the unlawful invasions of foreign countries with deaths in the many thousands, torture of political prisoners, and on and on. Had the WTC gone down as a result of a conspiracy of American intel officials and GOP conspirators or big money interests … or not … the result was the same: a savaging of our Constitution. If we focus on that, we can roll back the hideous effects of the Patriot Act and all the other violations of our individual and collective sovereignty. If we focus on the conspiracy itself, nothing will get accomplished. Witness the JFK conspiracy; the RFK conspiracy; the MLK conspiracy, etc etc.



And I do not believe that 911 changed the world. I think that is hyperbole, and part of the problem. The attacks of 911 were of a piece with all the “terrorist” attacks in Europe, Northern Ireland , Asia, Africa and Latin America of the past sixty post-war years. The difference was that these attacks took place in the US . What happened on 911 is that the United States joined the rest of the world, instead of floating above the fray and tsk-tsking about those pesky foreigners.



By the way, I believe I was careful in the interview not to come down on one side or the other on the idea of a 911 conspiracy, precisely because I did not want us to go off the rails on that discussion and not focus on the questions at hand: the idea of voluntary madness, shamanism as politics and politics as shamanism, etc.



As for what I believe about the 911 events: the key to that story is in the collapse of the third tower, as well as the debris pattern (or lack of it) at the Pentagon. Not to mention W’s sitting in Florida in a comatose state reading a book about a goat to a group of school children! Yes, there is a feast of conspiratorial red meat in and around the events of 911. But the disinformation is so thick around it that we are bound to get distracted by it and all its glittering effluvia that we lose track of the very palpable and demonstrable effects this Reichstag fire had on the American way of life. Who cares anymore who burned down the Reichstag? What we care about is that it brought Hitler to power as total ruler of the Third Reich.



And, of course, I am familiar (and have written about extensively) the connections between the Bush family and the Nazis, etc. That is nothing new. The Bush dynasty is suspect in a number of pro-Nazi plots, as anyone who has read Who Financed Hitler? or even my own Sinister Forces would realize.



But I have always taken the attitude that the documents do exist; that the proof is out there; that the cover-ups were not as total as they would like us to believe. We can uncover the conspiracies if we really work with the evidence at hand. It’s hard work, but well worth the effort!

aeolus kephas said...

Peter

thank you for that elucidation - i see your point, and it was more or less exactly why i didn't challenge you on it at the time - i'm not interested much either in 9/11, tho for different reasons. Since I perceive history itself as a "conspiracy" of the collective psyche - a form of mythic narrative albeit being driven very much by conscious agents (sorcerers) as much as by the collective unconscious - the details of who did what and how are only interesting (to me) so far as they provide clues to better decipher the narrative (and subtext) itself, which is cosmic in design, not merely global. As we already discussed, everything is metaphor doer something else. That said, to me it is an intrinsic part of the 9/11 myth/metahpor that is was consciously engineered as theater, for the ends acheived, and it being an inside job is integral to this reading.

By the way, i meant to ask if you have read Richard Tarnas' Psyche & Cosmos? if not i strongly recommend it; i think it will provide invaluable fodder for your own researches.

Peter Levenda said...

Actually we are talking about the same thing, but from different angles. I think that when you get the other 2 volumes of Sinister Forces, you’ll see what I mean. I apply quantum consciousness theory to history, and interpret coincidence, meaningful coincidence, and synchronicity as evidence of the action of the very conscious agents you describe. I am leery of confabulating political conspiracy with sorcery in too direct a manner, though. I believe that political conspirators can be the tools of what you are calling “sorcerers.”

Anyway, please feel free to post my last (and this) email. I will look into the Tarnas book. Thanks!

Cheers,

Peter

auroragirl said...

Hi Peter, if I may be so familiar. I see 911 as changing the world the way the atom bomb changed the world. Hiroshima was the unveiling of a hideous new technology, and 911 was the same...the unveiling of a hideous new technology. The WTC buildings (all 3) were not brought down with conventional explosives. The buildings did not "collapse", as everyone has been trained (hypnotized) to say, they were literally disintegrated by some sort of electromagnetic weapon or weapons (and not necessarily high powered ones at that. Tesla nearly shook apart an entire neighborhood in New York with a small device. It seems to be a matter of hitting the correct frequency or frequencies and pulsing them correctly). THAT is why 911 changed the world. It simply won't do to ignore the high tech aspects of 911 and their implications for the people of this planet.

As references, please see the work or Dr. Judy Wood, Mr. John Hutchison and Lt. Col. Tom Bearden, PhD. Especially see Dr. Judy Wood's section on "Hurricane Erin, 911, and Field Effects".

Thoth_Pavel said...

Hello,
Aeolus Kephas, Peter Levenda
This site gets more and more interesting by the week. I'm glad i heard this interview, the Stairway to heaven book, is intriguing, and Masons because of popular culture get a lot of press lately for a 'secret' fraternal brotherhood.

What's your Idea of heaven?, Aeolus oracle, "A place that if i go there they have to let me in?", This is interesting in our times, because the 'artist', 'shaman' or 'mystic' if they enter the occult world, then no question, you are damned. If you call up the unknown energies, or deal with angelic, demonic forces, their equivalent being the 'ufo' invasion of our times then what is real? There are people that think all 'occult' knowledge or phenomena is based on 'drugs'(thecollin), when most open minded people that experiment with this 'technology' get results, appearing within reality. What i am asking, not very well is 'what is the real order of things?'. From Sinister forces book 3, The Manson Secret, "The belief is often expressed that the demons -- merely opponents in the cosmic war, after all--are in combat with each other, and if humanity has become a kind of spiritual battlefield, then where did the gods and demons come from in the first place, and why is humanity "caught in the crossfire". page 366:>), for gematria enthusiasts. What i am asking is what side do we choose? I come from a background where art and creative spirit is the 'answer'. We strive to create something, in art, creation the spark of creativity, imagination being the answer, to our 'human downfall'. So i'll quote again from the Manson Secret, Book 3, "We need to start relying ourselves, and that means thinking for ourselves(as painful as the process may be, and i do not say that lightly).
"It means going back to our museums and art galleries, concert halls and libraries, to get a better understanding of our own culture and the sacrifice made by individual artists, musicians, and writers to bring eternal truths to our attention. It means turning of the television set." I see this as being the 'light at the end of the tunnel'. We have souls, a choice of free will, in the paragraph before the above quote, i see a 'good view of humanity' "I like to think that most people, if given a clear choice, would select good over evil." So then 'we have the ability' to create a new world based on how the universe works, mainly 'imagination' and creative spirit. Joseph Campbell saw this as 'follow your bliss', a lot of academics these days see the 'artist' as the final hero, the last chance for modern reality.
Which side do we serve light or darkness, or like the mystery schools walk down the 'middle'.

auroragirl said...

It seems to me that rape is the symbol of initiation into patriarchal society (at least for women) because patriarchal society...the Concensus...violates feminine wholeness. The concensus takes women's original wholeness and splits it into the virgin/whore (as well as other) polarity. It also robs a woman of her most precious "possesion", her womb, by making her sexual and reproductive powers subject to the dictates of society and men...hence the debate (still, in 2009!) over a womans right to abortion to name just one example. I don't have much time now and these are just some preliminary thoughts, but its too bad AK and Mr. Levenda stopped where they did on the subject of androgyny being a mens' phenomenon and the reasons for it...you guys were just getting somewhere when you stopped yourselves. I would like to recommend a book called "The Wise Wound" by Shuttle and Redgrove.

Sounder said...

Excellent conversation Aeolus and Peter, thanks.

And Peter, this coming to androgyny through a male bias is a worthy theme. By all means, try to take this idea further.

A book that matches well with the first part of this talk stays on my desk at all times. It’s called; The Reenchantment of the World by Morris Berman. I think he would mark the big change around 1666, when the Royal society was established. The road to this event was paved by the Catholic Church through Gassendi, Marsenne and Descartes. Their assignment was to suppress ‘enthusiasm’ by creating forms that placed “God’ as a distant element that still required priests and authority figures to mediate between common folk and this distant ‘God’. Mission accomplished.

An early conscious effort at effecting the dissolution (perverting) of participatory consciousness happened at the Consul of Nicaea. Where Jesus was taken to be God, rather than the dominant and enthusiasm generating notion that Jesus was simply like God. Metaphor was literalized.

If people are to give up the security of current forms, they will first need to be shown and understand the contrived nature of these forms. It can be maintained that ‘form’ per-se is not the problem, as much as the notion that limitations inherent in our current forms are the problem. Pulling away from the forms that give people their identity can result in trouble, so the shaman may do well to create forms that better comport with reality rather than trying to transcend form altogether. I guess I see the shaman’s job as one of doing the suffering so that less well equipped folk can be spared some of the pain.

A few days ago I checked up on a writer that had caught my interest awhile back. It’s neat as it syncs up well with this podcast. I never realized how close the connection between trauma and awakening experiences are. It’s odd for me because I have had an unusually pain free life. (Maybe not quite true.) Sure, the dark night of the soul was not pleasant, but it was over pretty quick.

I have enjoyed nearly every bit of Paul Levy’s writing so far. So different from my experience, yet oddly enough, quite similar results.

http://www.awakeninthedream.com/artis/we%20are%20all%20shamans.htm

WE ARE ALL SHAMANS-IN-TRAINING
By Paul Levy

In 1981 I spontaneously went into such an ecstatic state that I was hospitalized by what I call the “anti-bliss patrol.” The authorities had become alerted because I was simply unable to restrain my enthusiasm at the “good news” that was beginning to reveal itself to me about the nature of reality. Stepping out of my usual way of trying to control my experience, during that next year I was thrown in mental hospitals a number of times and (mis)diagnosed as having manic-depressive (bi-polar) illness. I was told that I had a chemical imbalance and would have to go on medication and learn to live with my “illness” for the rest of my life. Little did the doctors realize that although my experience looked like a typical nervous breakdown, I had actually gotten “drafted” into a deeper psycho-spiritual process of an entirely different order – a spiritual awakening/shamanic initiation - that was blowing my mind as it was simultaneously revealing it.

The rest is at the link.

ignis_aeolus said...

dunno if this has been brought here already. can't find the post where kotze's talks about grays and jewish mystics, but in this article coppens talks about grays in the book of enoch: http://www.philipcoppens.com/watchers.html

Sounder said...

Excellent conversation Aeolus and Peter, thanks.

And Peter, this coming to androgyny through a male bias is a worthy theme. By all means, try to take this idea further.

A book that matches well with the first part of this talk stays on my desk at all times. It’s called; The Reenchantment of the World by Morris Berman. I think he would mark the big change around 1666, when the Royal society was established. The road to this event was paved by the Catholic Church through Gassendi, Marsenne and Descartes. Their assignment was to suppress ‘enthusiasm’ by creating forms that placed “God’ as a distant element that still required priests and authority figures to mediate between common folk and this distant ‘God’. Mission accomplished.

An early conscious attempt at the dissolution (perverting) of participatory consciousness happened at the Consul of Nicaea. Where Jesus was taken to be God, rather than the dominant and enthusiasm generating notion that Jesus was simply like God. Metaphor was literalized.

If people are to give up the security of current forms, they will first need to be shown and understand the contrived nature of these forms. It can be maintained that ‘form’ per-se is not the problem, as much as the notion that limitations inherent in our current forms are the problem. Pulling away from the forms that give people their identity can result in trouble, so the shaman may do well to create forms that better comport with reality rather than trying to transcend form altogether. I guess I see the shaman’s job as one of doing the suffering so that less well equipped folk can be spared some of the pain.

A few days ago I checked up on a writer that had caught my interest awhile back. It’s neat as it syncs up well with this podcast. I never realized how close the connection between trauma and awakening experiences are. It’s odd for me because I have had an unusually pain free life. (Maybe not quite true.) Sure, the dark night of the soul was not pleasant, but it was over pretty quick.

I have enjoyed nearly every bit of Paul Levy’s writing so far. So different from my experience, yet oddly enough, quite similar results.

http://www.awakeninthedream.com/artis/we%20are%20all%20shamans.htm

WE ARE ALL SHAMANS-IN-TRAINING
By Paul Levy

In 1981 I spontaneously went into such an ecstatic state that I was hospitalized by what I call the “anti-bliss patrol.” The authorities had become alerted because I was simply unable to restrain my enthusiasm at the “good news” that was beginning to reveal itself to me about the nature of reality. Stepping out of my usual way of trying to control my experience, during that next year I was thrown in mental hospitals a number of times and (mis)diagnosed as having manic-depressive (bi-polar) illness. I was told that I had a chemical imbalance and would have to go on medication and learn to live with my “illness” for the rest of my life. Little did the doctors realize that although my experience looked like a typical nervous breakdown, I had actually gotten “drafted” into a deeper psycho-spiritual process of an entirely different order – a spiritual awakening/shamanic initiation - that was blowing my mind as it was simultaneously revealing it.

The rest is at the link.

zane said...

"Enlightenment is only for those who are tenderly OK with endless suffering" John DeRuiter

Or, you could put it this way:

http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/tracking_the_crack_in_the_universe.htm

Earlier, in some of your (A.K.) earlier talks, you seemed to at least provisionally accept the idea that ultimately, all manifestations are of One...kind of an advaita vedanta approach (seems to be particularly the perspective our fav. synchromystic takes). We're way down here on "the god-in-manifestation-eating-Self food chain though...and suffering seems to be part of the game...at this level. At this level the idea of one both producing and eating oneself seems pretty messed up...but at least at the ultimate level it can't be said that it is necessarily cruel to "the other" (there IS no "other")...STO and STS ultimately reconciled in God both the sacrificed and the sacrifier...maybe not my (here at this level) idea of "bliss," but what the hell...

Zane