Tuesday, December 16, 2008

Beyond the Grassy Knoll Interview

Chat I did with Vyzygoth for V's site Beyond the Grassy Knoll; first hour with myself, second hour with Adam Gorightly. You can download the show like this


lancifer said...

SW being aimed at those who are already "awake" (a term I loathe) is what makes SW so enjoyable. I believe you've undertaken an honorable task and filled an important niche. I somewhat agree with you about respecting peoples' desire to remain ignorant and irresponsible. In your everyday encounters with these types of people, if the situation permits, I think you should at least try to plant a seed in hope that it germinates and sends them out seeking on their own. Beyond this there's nothing you can do for people blissful in their ignorance.

Anonymous said...

Hi Lance.  In all seriousness could you clarify who you have in mind when you speak of the blissfully ignorant?  Could you paint us a picture of the kind of people you mean?  I am not trying to be combative here, and I am in fact trying to take as impersonal a stance as possible, but it seems to me that it is pejorative to say that someone is "blissfully ignorant" because that is a value judgement about them on our part when we say it (even when its not intended that way.)  They may not be experiencing their ignorance as blissfull at all.  Their ignorance may be one of anguish and despair.  But that is the state they must bear until they are ready to receive new information.  So I agree its important to try and plant seeds if it is appropriate to the situation, but I don't think it is correct to assume that ignorant people enjoy their state, or even that they don't know that they are ignorant (many people are perfectly aware that they are ignorant, they just don't know what to do about it.)  As an example, and at the risk of being personal, many people where I live are so poor that they literally have to hunt for meat for their table...if they didn't get a couple of deer each year, their children would go hungry. How much energy do they have at the end of the day to worry about the Sorcerez, even though they would be some of the people to benefit most if we could get the Sorcererz off our backs?  So I guess what I am saying is that people can only start from where they are given their circumstances and a person may have very important reasons of their own, that we can know nothing about, for being where they are (psychically speaking.)  Looking at a person from the outside, it is impossible to tell why they have chosen to be in the state that they are in.  Maybe their psyche NEEDS to experience whatever it is they are experiencing, even clinical paranoid schizophrenia.  Such a person would deserve our kindness and protection (something in our current world they are not likely to get.)  On the other hand, if someone truely is BLISSFUL in their ignorance, then that is the way they get to be, no matter how frustrating that may be for us.  It is not for us to judge them. Who are we to disturb their tranquility? 

To aeolus:  on the subject of integrating parts the various parts of our psyches, are there not also portions of our psyches that need to be dis-integrated and ejected before we can truely be ourselves?  The reason I ask is that this seems to me a very important subject that largely goes undiscussed.  "Everyone" goes on and on about integration, but it seems to me that some aspects of our psyches (and which aspects they are depend entirely upon the person) deserve no more integration than they already have (I am thinking, for instance, of the submissive, "good girl" attitude that is hammered into women) and are in fact toxic and parasitical.

Anonymous said...

What may be perceived as education to one may be interpreted as prosthelatization to another. Aeolus has red pills, but he's not forcing them down anyone's throat. I know plenty of people blissful in their ignorance, I call them the "I don't want to know what's in my hot dog people", because my mother actually put her fingers in her ears and started chanting "I don’t want to know what's in my hot dog!" when I attempted to inform her about it once. It has as much to do with socio-economics as one chooses to project upon it, or any topic for that matter. How many flavors of ignorance are there in the world, who would like to list them all for me?

It really struck a chord with me when Aeolus said, "I'm having a lot of ambivalence myself as a researcher of conspiracy as to how much I want to propagate these ideas which are actually being fed to me by the very powers that I'm ostensible exposing". I was thinking about this very thing last week as I was having lunch, and I bit my tongue so badly that I initially thought I had bit down on some sort of foreign object in my food. My mouth filled with blood gushing from the large hole I had put in my tongue. That was a week ago today, and my tongue is still healing. I've been contemplating the symbolism of the incident. J Man said it wasn't what you put in your mouth that makes one unclean, but what comes out. What do I really know about the affairs of men? I speak of things I do not know. My knowledge base is largely vicarious. I fool myself into believing that the clever lies found in books are better than the stupid lies found on television. The more I learn, the more I realized that I don't know what the fuck is really going on. I've been feeling a new sense of empowerment by keeping my mouth shut and chewing slowly.

Talk to you soon AK.

lancifer said...

There's certainly a fine line between proselytization and education. Proselytization I would never advocate and education only when someone asks for it.

What I was referring to in my post is something very sublime and subtle. I liken proselytization as throwing the curtain open and forcefully pushing someone through it, education as simply opening the curtain and revealing what's been hidden, and I see planting seeds as just barely brushing up against the curtain (almost accidentally) which reveals what's on the other side for only a split second. If the person is inherently a seeker (something I think Aeolus touched on in the latest podcast) this will be enough to ignite a small spark in them and if they'd rather remain ignorant then that's fine too, the choice is always up to them.

As of late I've been keeping my mouth shut also (mostly) and I find it strangely liberating. There is in fact a very practical and occult purpose behind the saying "the wise remain silent" and I will share it with everyone when I figure out how to put it clearly into words.

Jasun said...

Hi Cary, good to see you in this place

seems like you made yourself a blood offering as a reminder that our words really do have power: the power even of life and death?

it's been said that while the average man can take back his words but never his actions, the reverse is true for sorcerers: they can undo/rewrite their actions, but never their words

is this to do with language, Logos, pertaining to primary reality, and actions only to secondary, like shadows or side effects? To how the Magus speaks (sings) reality into being?

If so then "actions speak louder than words" would be true only in the human realm; becoz for sorcerers, words ARE actions.

No wonder we bite our tongue from time to time: to remind ourselves that, one way or another, our words always cause casualties.

Judgment invariably leads to sentence. Beliefs are constantly being "executed" - along with those blissful ignorant - in and by our divisive minds as a means to reform the kingdom of the psyche.

i have found of late that saying "I don't have a clue what i am talking about" is strangely empowering, as well as liberating.

Face it, we don't.

Best policy is to ask as many questions as possible and give as few answers. 'Course this isn't necessarily what I do running a podcast! : /

lots of intriguing points and questions being raised here, & I will try to get to them sooner or later, one way or another

to AG: yes, I think all unintegrated parts must either be integrated or DIS-integrated - but I wonder if even the latter don't need to integrated first, before being diss-ed?

Lance said...

I should add that I have no clue what I've been talking about in this thread. What I perceive as subtly planting a seed may be perceived by another as proselytization. Once again it all comes down to perception. Cheers all!

Anonymous said...

Hi Cary. The situation was the same for me and my parents. I really wanted to clue them in to what is underneath our concensus reality because 1) I care for them very much 2) because I found it so exciting and wanted to share my excitment with them, but they just didn't want to know. More than merely blissful, their ignorance is willfull, but they seem to regard this as some sort of civic duty and seem to feel that they are doing the right thing by keeping themselves in the dark. It finally came down to one choice...did I want a relationship with them or not? I decided that I did, and so stopped trying to "educate" them. The responsibility for their decision is theirs, not mine, and so I don't worry about it any more. I have come to feel the same way about all other people too. Their awakening is not my responsiblity, although I am more than happy to talk to them about these things if they ask.

p.s. Perhaps we are too schooled in the ideal of democracy?

To AK: Perhaps. But these foreign bits feel like splinters in my psyche, like they were never mine and never belonged there. It always feels like what I actually integrate is the knowlege that these are foreign introjects and not the introject itself. Once I do that, I can decide if I want to leave them there or not, but I have to realize they are foreign first. Not saying that the way for everyone or whether thats the best way to go about it, but it seems to have helped me. And apologies if I've been too personal.

Anonymous said...

"Judgment invariably leads to sentence." The dual connotation of the word 'sentence' seems numinous, and I have never thought about it before. Sentences, the execution of beliefs, words made flesh.

I have the right to remain silent, anything I say can and will be used against me.

Sounder said...

Lance wrote...

"SW being aimed at those who are already "awake" (a term I loathe) is what makes SW so enjoyable."

You say, 'already awake', pleeasze

If you say you loathe it, I say go with that tip and stop thinking you are 'awake'.

By the by, I enjoyed your bit on the Hormones post, but auroragirl is right, you way overvalue your intellectualized treatment of the categories. As a generality this culture does quite well at locking our natural imagination into rigid conceptual boxes. Then the people with ‘forced’ intellect take over, (torturing the categories until there is no meaning left).

Also, having awareness does not mean you are awake, it only means you are able to handle a bit more cognitive dissonance. What you do to resolve that dissonance determines awareness.

lancifer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lancifer said...

I never said that I myself am "awake" or referred to myself in that way. I said the show is generally aimed in that direction, and that I enjoy it for that reason. The word in question is a very subjective term which in turn makes my post subjective, so I don't fault you for misinterpreting my intent in meaning.

Leon1234 said...

Hey, what's up?

Anonymous said...

To Lance: It is natural for someone to assume you include yourself if the catagory of "awake" since you enjoy the show. That was my reading of your post, too.

To Sounder: Thankyou, I'm glad you understood what I meant. There is a wonderful book called "Emotional Genius" by a woman named Karla McLaren that basically says that the emotions are not some black sheep of the family, or second on some hierarchical scale the way Lance had listed. For instance, from page 194: ANGER: The Honorable Sentry...includes rage, fury, and the masking state of apathy...Gifts: Honor--Proper Bounderies--Healthy detatchment--Conviction--Protection (of self and other.) Anyway, that may give you some idea of the contents and format the book. The emotions are basically forms of conciousness all their own that are absolutley necessary; not only for survival but for navigating life every single day, (I think that the anti-anger dogma of the "New Age-ers" is extremely pernicious) and no one has the right to pass value judgements and say that someone is being "too" emotional. All anyone can say is "YOU are being too emotional for MY TASTE" (which is a perfectly legitimate attitude, by the way...then the negotiations begin.) I also think that the tendency for people to see the intellectual as somehow "higher" than the emotional is part of the masculine bias that is so unconcious and taken for granted in many people (including women).

Jasun said...

it's true very few ignorant folk are blissfully so - but it's just a figure of speech! Underlining the undeniable fact that ignorance is a way to avoid unpleasant truths, and the discomfort that they cause us.

AG: the foreign installations or splinters that come from outside (castaneda's flyers?) still have to be integrated once they are inside us. I think the point is that all foreign elements will automatically DIS-integrate as a result of being integrated. Since they aren't intrinsic components of our totality but rather invasive or elements, they are like bacteria which the body assimilates in order to destroy.

Lance et al: Like anything else, "awake" is a relative term. On a moving scale between total catatonia, heightened awareness, and full lucidity, where are we - today?

I think it's safe to say only a small % of the population can "grok" the things we are discussing here, and that this is due to their being (by choice, tho not conscious choice) LESS AWAKE than we are. There needn't be any assumption of value judgment in this statement. Who's to say being asleep is less "real" than being awake? But it IS crucial to allow for a difference.

Ditto between "us" and the "ignorant masses" - provide we remember that we still have plenty in common with each other, regardless of our level of attention.

Anonymous said...

"awake" means different things to different people so there's really no point in arguing about it, and i think we all know what the original poster meant anyways.

do you consider yourself "awake" sounder? i hope not because the energy you put into that personal attack went straight into the imaginal mouth of an inorganic being.

most of you are taking yourselves way to seriously, enjoy life and worry less about other people and pay more attention to yourselves.

actually, lance has been the only regular poster i've observed looking inwards (other than the blog owner aeolus and occasionally aurora).

i've listened to two stormy weather episodes and so far i'm enjoying it.

Anonymous said...

And I think that everyone who tells someone they are taking themselves too seriously is guilty of taking themselves too seriously!

Anonymous said...

p.s. That was really a remark that belongs to the subject matter on a different discussion, but it will serve for this one, too.

To Kim: I am one of those who think that looking inward needs to be balanced by looking outward. The way I see it, what good is all this looking inward if I don't do something with it. I don't see looking inward as any kind of goal in itself. To me, the reason to look inward is to bring the treasures found back out, into relationship with people and with life. And finally, maybe the more extroverted amoung us need to project sometimes and see the results before we can integrate the unconcious. In other words, maybe "getting personal" is necessary for some people once in a while. That's why they invented the words "I'm sorry".

Sounder said...

Kim wrote…

do you consider yourself "awake" sounder? i hope not because the energy you put into that personal attack went straight into the imaginal mouth of an inorganic being.

Thanks for your comment Kim, as I certainly do not want to feed the inorganic beings. (Not said facetiously)

This is an effort to clear up definitions. I consider that while everybody is aware to one degree or another, one is not be ‘awake’ unless one can connect the internal recognition with a set of correspondences that unites the inner and the outer. As I consider that the creation of this new set of correspondences or criterion for understanding is a social project, no I do not consider myself to be ‘awake’. I do however ‘project’ the future criterion for understanding, that I dream as providing a picture of reality that will provide the basis for healthy expressions within society, into my own ontological speculations. On that count alone, I am doing something that not many aware folk seem willing to attempt.

Kim, it’s a pickle because we all miss contextual elements as we jump on this or that thing and then miss all the other things. I did say that I liked Lances post, and would love to get into the details involved. But, and here is that pickle again, because intelligence is measured in this culture, by how well one orders the categories in terms of the current psychical conditioning system, the educated or ‘forced’ intelligence folk do not react well to a reordering of the categories. I have witnessed this at Rigorous Intuition for two years now. Lots of very smart folk, quite aware, but not very interested in becoming ‘awake’.

I am here because of some top drawer posts provided by Aeolus at RI. Thanks Aeolus. If anybody is interested, a larger context for my ideas can be found in a thread titled; The Virus of Intellect or our Pompous Leaders, (should have been titled the Virus within Intellect). Please do comment.


wv; parti

lancifer said...

Welcome to SW, Sounder. After reading through your blogs I'm looking forward to seeing what you have to say about some of the topics here and discussing them with you.

I don't think you have to worry about any educated or ‘forced’ intelligence people finding their way to SW. I think everyone here realizes categorization is simply a tool of communication, and obviously nothing truly fits in one category or another.

sounder said...

Thanks Lance, hey, ya never know; ya know, we will see what happens.

Anonymous said...

Interesting point in the Vyz show about David Bohm's implicate and explicate order as compared to the Imaginal realm & 'mundane' reality.

Alan Moore in his 'Miracleman' comic series used as a plot device a spoken word that was used to trigger a swapping of a character's superposition between two dimensions of differing 'attention', if you like.

Staying with comics, an episode in 'The Invisibles' by Grant Morrison had our heroes stopped in their tracks by the utterance of 'weaponized' words that were constructed from an expanded occult alphabet and were impossible for the uninitiated mind to process, causing unconsciousness.

How about a show dealing with language & the Logos, AK?

Ta-Wan said...

I enjoyed this show a lot.