(the following was posted by myself at another thread at RI, here)
At what point can a manufactured meme (a psyop) be seen as separate from a natural meme, such as pertains to the collective zeitgeist itself? I don’t think it’s possible finally to separate the one from the other: i.e., psyop movies (and CIA Hollywood) from the greater, “synchromystic” (sorry) operation that is the Universe. It’s Russian dolls: any agenda you care to map always exists inside another, greater agenda, and so is informed and shaped by it.
Unfortunately I don’t know enough either about movies or Hollywood, so I’ll have to take Hugh Manatee’s word for it when he says that all mainstream movies (which I’m afraid go under — or over? — my radar) are intelligence-created psyops designed to shape and direct our consciousness. Sure, why wouldn’t they be? Everything else is.
But why single out movies when Western culture itself is one great psyop, from Moses on down? What about Shakespeare? Wasn’t “he” a psyop? A perhaps more interesting question is: how do such psyops work, exactly? Is Hugh suggesting that everyone who works in Hollywood is an operative? Or is it more subtle than that?
My instinct tells me it’s a lot more subtle. If Hollywood is a meme-creating industry, set up, like any organization, with a specific agenda, then anyone who makes it into the inner circles — and is able to make and release mainstream products — has already been subtly “converted” to that agenda, probably most of the time without ever actually realizing it. Perhaps it’s like a computer program which converts files before “opening” them (allowing them access to it)? Anyone making movies in Hollywood has presumably been through a slow, steady infiltration (initiation?) process, in which they have been “reconfigured” (acclimatized) to be compatible with the Hollywood agenda. This would make them “infected” carriers of the “virus,” meaning anything they do, whatever their conscious intentions, is also going to be a carrier for the “virus.” It would be like a factory that produces a seemingly innocuous, “harmless” product — a soft drink, say —that is actually subtly poisoning and/or addicting the populace. The factory workers and advertising staff, 98% of employees for the company, think they are just selling Coca Cola. But really they are involved in something more complex and “sinister.”
I believe this is how conspiracies work—by creating “programs” (memes and organizations, belief systems and social-cultural movements, etc.) with hidden functions that people then unwittingly “install” into their hardware and then become dependent on, slowly (often unknowingly) converting all their “data” (beliefs, opinions, and behavior) to make it compatible with that program. Hence we become servants of the secret agenda (upholders of the meme, sleeper agents of the grand psyop), without ever suspecting an agenda even exists.
That’s the first Russian doll — our culture. But there’s a much bigger, subtler layer of intrigue at work here, which is that even the highest-level meme-creators and psy-operatives are working unconsciously for a vastly greater agenda. They can’t escape the fact that anything they do—any memes or psyops they create—will inevitably be a distorted expression of a cosmic meme, or “zeitgeist.”
There’s no need to posit any God in this, at least if we admit that any system that gives rise to conscious individuals must itself be conscious. Every movement of matter on the planet is being directed—is inseparable from—the movement of matter throughout the Universe (i.e., is just a very local expression of a galactic process). In exactly the same way, all expressions and operations of consciousness within the human realm are reflections and/or extensions of the consciousness of the Universe. Perhaps this sounds mystical, but if so, it’s because I am struggling to find the right scientific terms. This is really all physics, and inescapable logic for anyone who takes the time to think it through. The workings of human groups and individuals—be they Hollywood, CIA, Masonic sorcerers, or whoever—can no more work in isolation from the movements of planets and stars than our cells can function outside of our bodies. Everything is regulated by the intelligence of the system to which it belongs.
In the metaphor I used, if Hollywood (Western culture) is the “program,” then I guess Earth/humanity is the computer, and the Universe is both the manufacturer and programmer. The element of human intervention here is small but significant: as “program designer,” humans determine the ways in which the computer interacts with its maker—thereby testing the possibilities of both. In the end, though, nothing we do can ever depart from the original design, the blueprint which gave rise to the experiment to begin with. We can only operate within these very precisely laid out parameters.
Back to the virus analogy: the creators of the “fake virus” of psyop Hollywood, etc., are unaware of being carriers of the real virus, that of the Spirit, or if you prefer, Nature itself. So even as they design their products to be Trojan Horse-style carriers for their Masonic mind-control memes, the artificial virus they have created is itself (inevitably, since the Universe is everywhere) a carrier for the Spirit-meme—dolls within dolls, horses inside horses. This is why “CIA-Hollywood” comes out with “psyop” movies like Matrix, Fight Club, or Three Kings, movies that, despite whatever secret toxins they may contain to pollute and stupefy the mass mind, are also designed to activate creative centers in the psyches of at least a few individuals. Face it, we are all not just double but triple agents: working not only for our personal ego gratification and our secret handlers (those dastardly Masonic sorcerers), but finally, gloriously, for the Universe herself.
The real occult technology of power is accessible to everyone. It depends first of all on recognizing our own signatures dimly engraved upon the secret architecture of reality. As Nietzsche said, “We are all greater artists than we know.” That goes double for sorcery.
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Then maybe the solution to our dilemma is to stop fighting and surrender...to try trusting this force which is so much greater than ourselves, since it seems we really have no other choice anyway. Instead of fighting the "Masonic Sorcerers" maybe we ought to try giving them what they are asking for: lets take the bit in our teeth and run with it (which is what Satanists may be trying to do, only taking things too literally, like the Christian Fundys). We should become acters instead of reacters. Of course, I'm probably completely wrong.
actors instead of reactors sounds exactly right
I totally agree. Nice.
OK, then how do we do that? It seems to me that we need some solidarity...groups of people, not just lone individuals...are what seem to work against ths MSs, like the workers who occupied their building, or the Vietnam War draft card burners. As soon as the MSs were able to get the war protestors navel-gazing through their psyops programs (the manufactured "music scene") and were able to atomize the group solidarity into individuals "doing their own thing" the antiwar movement was pretty much neutralized. Come to think of it, maybe this decades-long exercise in individuality is nothing more than a giant psyop, to keep us (the non-MSs) atomized and ineffectual.
I have also noticed that "coincident" with the Iraq war protests and the protest against globalization (global facsism) along comes a new psychedelic movement. Funny, that.
In the end the universe is just being the universe, it is playing its game, and like children, it doesn't always play fair. While one may hurt another, it is still a game.
Wei Wu Wei said "play your part in the comedy, but don't identify with the role"
But here we get the simplistic "well why don't I just kill people then if its just a game" retort. And the answer is well some people do just that, but to be happy, we don't. A person knowing it is just the inquisitive, mischievous universe at play, may take to abusing others to satisfy themselves. (they call them The Elite) But this does not make for true happiness, which is why they have to cary on and on, never satisfied.
The role of the elite is not to end anything but to maintain this wave of confusion that they surf so skilfully.
It works on a few levels. At the very very top, on the scale of the universe, nothing matters. Part way up the scale, it matters like fuck because we can identify with the suffering of the planet and its inhabitance and we dislike tyrants.
So where do we go? Sit back make a coffee, let them run amok or take a stand? ...Enlightenment says "ok it doesn't matter, it's happening anyway, part of the flow, let it go." - but it also says "compassion is the highest fruit of creation, you feel it. Until everyone is enlightened then there will be suffering - so until everyone is playing the game, and while billions take it seriously, it is our job to tell the universe to play nice!"
The universe only knows good and bad through us, so have to tell it - "when you emerge as humanity - don't eat babies."
if forgot to click the "Email follow-up comments to:" option so have to post this..
Hi Tao. Well, maybe, but it seems to me more like the "elite" have taken it upon themselves to interfere with the will of the Universe. While still a part of the Universe, because everything must be, they still seem to have set themselves against it. There is no law that says that an organ of the body (for instance) cannot "go rogue" and become cancerous. That organ is still part of the body, but is then would seem to be working against the greater good. If we use the cancerous condition of that organ (again, this is all as an analogy) to direct our attention to changes that we need to make in our lives and use the condition for our greater good, then that's different. So maybe it matters very much what we do or don't do at our level of reality. Maybe the Universe is asking us to get off our asses and actually DO SOMETHING about the MSs (in other words, change something in our reality that is unhealty for us and is making us and the Universe sick). Maybe the function of the MSs is like a boiling chip in a chemcial solution...something to get the reaction going so that a new reality can crystalize around it instead of "remaining in solution". p.s. I hope I understood what you were saying. If not, please reiterate.
I don't think we disagree if you follow my complete post :)
I'm sorry Tao, but something seems to be missing. There is no link after the elipses on that other post of yours. Where can I find your complete post?
hi, i don't see;
...it matters like fuck because we can identify with the suffering of the planet and its inhabitance and we dislike tyrants.
...and while billions take it seriously, it is our job to tell the universe to play nice!"
...so have to tell it [the universe]- "when you emerge as humanity - don't eat babies."
as ellipses.
Ah! I read those lines, but they seemed submerged beneath the "nothing really matters" lines. I think that this mixing of levels of reality is very pernicious (not that that is what you are doing) and a part of the MSs psyops/scam. I like the idea that you see humanity's role as that of teaching the universe to play nice...like Job was more mature than the "Lord". But I instinctively reject the idea that at the highest levels of the universe nothing really matters, because then it wouldn;t matter at this level, either. Kind of like the food chain and pollution: you can't really say that at the lowest levels of the food chain pollution doesn't matter because the pollution keeps concentrating as you go up levels until its dangerous to eat fish...polluted algae leads to polluted fish which leads to polluted people. And if there is anything to chaos theory, then sensitivity to initial conditions is everything and the state of the Universe on the highest levels may be directly conditioned by what we do here, hence it would matter even more intensely at the highest levels than it does here! Nor do I get the feeling that the Universe is just playing a game for the fun of it and that the outcome doesn't matter. I do think that compassion is the highest fruit of creation, of the Universe itself, so again, how does that fit into the nothing-really-matters idea? If nothing matters, then nothing matters on any level, not just the higher ones.
At any rate, back to idea of concerted action to become actors not reactors, the best thing I can think of right now is to watch for opportunities to act and make use of them, depending on the situation. I guess that sounds pretty lame, but any time we can join with other people in postitive action that is for the greater good of humanity (whether global or local), we are doing the right thing.
Finally, some people that can speak 'over my head’, thanks aeolus for the synapse tingles.
Aeolus wrote…
"That’s the first Russian doll — our culture. But there’s a much bigger, subtler layer of intrigue at work here, which is that even the highest-level meme-creators and psy-operatives are working unconsciously for a vastly greater agenda. They can’t escape the fact that anything they do—any memes or psyops they create—will inevitably be a distorted expression of a cosmic meme, or “zeitgeist.”"
Yes, they work unconsciously for a vastly greater agenda. I have lots to say about this agenda, but I’m feeling a bit shy so for now I will leave this for consideration.
This is from; ‘Coming to our Senses’, by Morris Berman. Pg. 312
Paradigm-shift is still part of the salvation mentality, a patriarchal mind-set that tells the hero to persevere, find a new form of consciousness that will give him redemption. The awareness that this whole structure is an illusion is the heresy Needleman and Eco are talking about, the real heresy we need to embrace.
Horizontal consciousness, as well as reflexivity, also implies a society of tools rather than worldviews. The minute anything-science, feminism, Buddhism, holism, whatever- starts to take on the characteristics of a cosmology, it should be discarded. How things are held in the mind is infinitely more important than what is in the mind, including this statement itself. For there is a big difference between ideas and ideology. An idea is something you have; an ideology, is something that has you. All of these beliefs, techniques, and ideologies are useful; but they are not ‘true.’ What is true is our need to stuff the gap, our longing, our drive to create worldviews out of tools so we can be ‘safe’. At least that is true right now. My guess is that there is a deeper truth, one that could be part of a new culture. This deeper truth is that we don’t need to stuff the gap, etc., so that we can be ‘safe’. In this new culture we would observe this need for ‘safety’, but would refuse to give into it. Safety would come from the body, not from this or that system.
Pg. 313
….Only our need for truth is true, and the problem arises when any one of these tools, or codes, is mapped onto our entire ontology. Reflexivity is about the breaking away from this vertical, binary pathology, for it does not (necessarily) say, “Have no codes”, but only requires a deliberate awareness of constructing and using a code, and the having of that awareness as part of the code.
Sounder wrote: Finally, some people that can speak 'over my head’, thanks aeolus for the synapse tingles.
Can you ever make a post without blatant ego aggrandizement? You think highly of yourself, perhaps a little too highly.
Another observation, I see that auroragirl is still posting before reading the total content of the other peoples posts.
Well, I guess in Kim's Rule Book it says that someone has to comment on each and every point of a post in order to be relevant! In point of fact, Kim, I did read Tao's entire post, but for me his bit about nothing mattering at the "very very top, at the level of the universe", just outweighted everything else he, and it was that that I was commenting upon, because no mere human can possible know such a thing. What Tao is promoting is simply one belief system about the universe, nothing more. I countered with a different view and belief system.
very nice to read such empassioned back and forth dialogue here - at least until Kim came in for the kill! Kim - from where i'm sitting you are projecting beyond your limits, and either deliberately trying to sabotage a lively discussion by bringing it back down to personal attack/defense levels, or else just feeling insecure about having nothing useful to say and so emoting instead.
"You think highly of yourself, perhaps a little too highly."
Right back at ya.
I will try to join in the discussion properly anon, if sorcery scedhule allows!
Sounder wrote: Finally, some people that can speak 'over my head’
I have to agree with Kims observation in this case. Sounder's comment does give the appearance of ego inflation, in my opinion.
William
Reacting to Sounder's supposed egomania seems like an unprofitable derailment of this very interesting discussion.
First order of business seems to be to unbuckle ourselves from our rigid Identities so that we can usefully function as expressions of the Implicate Order, (over-simplifying here)become Human Be-ings rather than Human Do-ings.
Is the obstacle we face our early and ongoing conditioning of pain avoidance or something else?
That's a hoot. I am here because aeolus posted material over at RI that is coming from a larger perspective than is the typical RI stuff. I look for people smarter than myself and I pay attention.
Maybe I do have an inflated ego, but it’s been deflating for years. At any rate I do not attack people on the basis of a few sentences. I find this an odd application of energy, but then again that must be because there is something in that for me to learn about. Carry on.
I agree with V, nit-picking over the personal qualities of posters is counter-productive - the surest way to derail an otherwise intelligent dialogue. Who cares if William thinks Sounder was self-aggrandizing and who cares if he was - if so it was far too subtle (and ingenuous) to matter a damn.
If we keep to discussing ideas and only level personal criticism when it appears that someone is attempting such derailment (consciously or not, through self-aggrandizement or otherwise), then we have a much better chance of staying on course.
Moving on...
Tao - i am torn between two responses to your post, always a good sign. On the one hand, the idea that the Universe doesn't "play fair," and needs humans to teach it, strikes me as presumption bordering on arrogance, not to mention humancentricism. How exactly does the Universe not play fair? That's certainly not my experience, and such an idea smacks all too much of the victim-perspective, i.e., self-pity. If we project our own ideas of fairness or right and wrong onto the impersonal energy at play of the Universe, naturally we are going to feel It comes up short. But to then say that the Universe needs to learn from us is to suggest that we somehow possess a capacity the Universe lacks - if so, where did it come from? We are creations of the Universe, and can the creature surpass its creator?
On the other hand, AG's reference to Jung's "Answer to Job," which shows Job to be "superior" (morally) to Jahweh, seems apropos. The Universe we know, the material, predatory Universe, is but a surface aspect of the greater reality, the "true God," a kind of temporary imposition of "order" onto the formless "chaos" of Infinite potential that is the implicate order. The law-giver Jehovah then, like the Eagle of Castaneda, issues "commands" by which the Universe (and all its creatures) come into being. We then uphold those commands and, by doing do, add our own energy (will) to them: in other words Jahweh maintains "order" throughout the Creation with our (unconscious) co-operation.
Creating new "commands," new intent, is what real sorcery is all about, and what human existence is all about. To that extent, it may be that we are given the task - the challenge/opportunity of "reprogramming" the Universe - by reprogramming ourselves, and replacing the old commands with new, "refined" (more fully conscious, less predatory) ones.
But this is one major rabbit hole to venture into right now, so I'll leave it at that for now.
AG said: "Maybe the function of the MSs is like a boiling chip in a chemical solution...something to get the reaction going so that a new reality can crystalize around it instead of "remaining in solution"."
Very enticing formula, and quite alchemical. Def. worth looking into.
There's no doubt in my mind that the MSs are actually enabling us, through rev of method, to become aware of the system of "commands" (laws, habits, beliefs, mores) by which our reality is created and so access the option of rewriting them.
Sounder: Stimulating quotes, thanks for those. I will hunt the book down and devour as soon predatorily as possible.
When you see that I said the universe does not always play fair you will see that it was just a point of undeniable balance. It also produces unfathomable wonder and beauty.
A collection of people who are acting well will rub off on the rest and ultimately shape the universe for the better by the simple act of fixing the one. -The universe can be shaped by our wisdom.
In a world where damaged individuals try to shape the world, it is obvious to all looking that it wont work. -The universe (at the human level) is currently shaped by abuse of knowledge in the paragraph above.
The alternative is simple and that is to fix the self and the propagation will fix the universe.
I actually stand by all the words in my original post and find all objections to it to be of misinterpretation. I regret having to clear up points as the original intent is lost and the words lose their flavour.
I am coming from a mystical perspective and assuming those I talk to to be there too. I do not operate on the level of scribe so will not stand up to literary reviews of how I word my points but instead the deeper meanings within them. Unfortunately they need to be painted for the listener and the option to do that here is not present as people are listening on different frequencies.
The stiller the viewer, the more that is seen. Looking when the mind is already moving and holding shapes then distortion occurs and simple clarity is like mud.
So rather than continue to attempt to shape the smoke, I stand by my original words and will add no more. They are true from the centre and running around the outside they lose form.
Well, Tao, I am sorry that you find it beneath yourself to reiterate so that we may understand. Isn't that the old "mystics" ploy...to those who understand no explaination is necessary and to those who don't no explaination is possible? If someone doesn't understand what I am trying to say, I am happy to explain further; in fact nothing makes me happier than when someone asks for clarification or expresses curiosity about what I mean. I don't retreat into "well, you wouldn't understand", thereby insulting them and aggrandizing myself. Maybe it is unfortunated, but at this level of reality it seems to be incumbent upon a writer or speaker to put their concepts into language that others can understand, if their intent is communicate and not mystify, that is.
To aeolus...is that why "Lucifer saves", because he was trying to create something new in heaven and not just follow the same old path, and why humans who upset the status quo are seen as Luciferian, because they are doing the same thing; creating a new intent, actually willing something new into existance, often in the face of intense opposition? And that the "elites" would keep our Will locked up or channeled for their own selfish gain and not our own? It seems like all the humans who tried to free the masses from enslavement (Tesla, Reich, Rife, and a host of others) were demonized by the PTB and their fates used as an object lesson to lesser humans who would dare buck the system. Jehova (or what ever you want to call him) may have created this reality, but like a controlling father, does not want to let it go to fulfill its potential, maybe because that potential is greater than his own?
"In a world where damaged individuals try to shape the world, it is obvious to all looking that it wont work. -The universe (at the human level) is currently shaped by abuse of knowledge..."
and by the passivity of the ignorant. But who among us in such a world is not a damaged individual?
The Universe we perceive exists wholly in and through our perception of it, as such can only ever be a reflection of our own psyches. Refine our psyches and the Universe is refined as a "result" - tho in fact the processes occur simultaneously, since we are the Universe and the Universe is us.
"I actually stand by all the words in my original post and find all objections to it to be of misinterpretation. I regret having to clear up points as the original intent is lost and the words lose their flavour. .. . So rather than continue to attempt to shape the smoke, I stand by my original words and will add no more. They are true from the centre and running around the outside they lose form."
Tao: It seems odd that you prefer to simply stand by your original statement, as if it was the final word of Truth, than explore the implications further, which is what discussion is for, surely?
Any objections to ideas presented here are (for my part at least) simply ways to go deeper into the subject, and if i "disagree" it is wholly in order to use that friction to get closer to fuller, more lucid view.
The result will often (as above) be that I simply use someone's own ideas (or opinions) as stimuli to free associate with my own, and so fourth.
Certainly there's no need to "clear up points" since by then we have already moved onto new ones, hopefully. But to simply stand by your words is to say that they are final and no further debate is necessary, or even welcome.
As for tao's earlier point about the Universe being a game, and AG's disagreement, i'll try to get to that one anon...
aeoolus, I would like to add a bit of clarification to my disagreement with Tao. It may be that the Universe is at play the way children play; with the utmost seriousness. Many adults seem to forget, or maybe never realize, that play is to children what work is to adults...play is the work of children. When they play they are immersed in the Imaginal realm and it can be very damaging to children when adults disrupt their play or structure their time too much so that they can't give their imaginations full freedom. That said, if Teilhard de Chardin is right and we are converging on the Omega Point, then I cannot help but think that far from "at the very very top, nothing matters" just the opposite is true: that at the very very top EVERYTHING matters...every thought, every action, every wish, every emotion, every what-have-you of every human being on the face of the earth. If the Universe is the sum total of everything that exisists, then everything matters. Just MHO.
This is from Edgar Allen Poe In a thread called “There’s probably no God” at: http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=21104&start=60
EAP is talking with a friend that is in trance.
…………P. Is not God spirit ?
V. While I was awake I knew what you meant by "spirit," but now it seems only a word -- such for instance as truth, beauty -- a quality, I mean.
P. Is not God immaterial ?
V. There is no immateriality -- it is a mere word. That which is not matter, is not at all -- unless qualities are things.
P. Is God, then, material ?
V. No. [This reply startled me very much.]
P. What then is he?
V. [After a long pause, and mutteringly.] I see -- but it is a thing difficult to tell. [Another long pause.] He is not spirit, for he exists. Nor is he matter, as you understand it. But there are gradations of matter of which man knows nothing; the grosser impelling the finer, the finer pervading the grosser. The atmosphere, for example, impels the electric principle, while the electric principle permeates the atmosphere. These gradations of matter increase in rarity or fineness, until we arrive at a matter unparticled -- without particles -- indivisible -- one and here the law of impulsion and permeation is modified. The ultimate, or unparticled matter, not only permeates all things but impels all things -- and thus is all things within itself. This matter is God. What men attempt to embody in the word "thought," is this matter in motion.
P. The metaphysicians maintain that all action is reducible to motion and thinking, and that the latter is the origin of the former.
V. Yes; and I now see the confusion of idea. Motion is the action of mind -- not of thinking. The unparticled matter, or God, in quiescence, is (as nearly as we can conceive it) what men call mind. And the power of self-movement (equivalent in effect to human volition) is, in the unparticled matter, the result of its unity and omniprevalence; how I know not, and now clearly see that I shall never know. But the unparticled matter, set in motion by a law, or quality, existing within itself, is thinking…..
Hi Sounder. Your most recent post brought this to mind:
from The Giza Death Star by Joseph P Farrell:
"...for the ancient paleophysics there is distinction between God and Space, a distinction made on the basis of the following dialectic of oppostions:
God
-is known to himself
is not
Space
-is not known to itself
That is, the principle distinction between the two is that Space requires AN OBSERVER.
The third entity, Kosmos, which is to be understood as a "material, corporeal, complex system" is further distinguished from God and space by the same process of dialectical oppostition:
God
a)known to
himself
b)unmoved
c)incorporeal
is not
Space
a)not know to itself
b)unmoved
c)incorporeal
Kosmos
a)not known to itself
b)moved
c)corporeal
Space, then, is the universal condition for motion, and while-pace Einstein-it does not move, it may be "bent" or warped. Conversely, the material universe's one invariable condition is change, variance, or motion." Emphasis in the original.
The middle part should be in a sort of table form, but the software wouldn't let me write it that way. Anyway, this seemed to tie right in to what you posted.
From Aeolus' original post: "There’s no need to posit any God in this, at least if we admit that any system that gives rise to conscious individuals must itself be conscious. Every movement of matter on the planet is being directed—is inseparable from—the movement of matter throughout the Universe (i.e., is just a very local expression of a galactic process). In exactly the same way, all expressions and operations of consciousness within the human realm are reflections and/or extensions of the consciousness of the Universe."
I definately agree with this statement, but instead of the Russian doll analogy I think a more useful analogy to sum up what Aeolus said would be the use of fractals. From the description Aeolus gave it would appear that consciousness is itself fractal.
A quick Google search showed that I'm not alone with this thought and that it's previously been considered. I'd like to get peoples' opinion on the information on this website.
Hi Lance. Very interesting...in fact much more than very interesting. I could only give the website from the link a cursory read right now, but intend to puruse it later today. As for examples in the real world, there is a website about crystal caves in (I think) Mexico, where the crystals are as big as large trees. When you see the pics of people standing amongst these huge crystals, it becomes obvious that the universe it fractal. By the way, has anyone heard of a video called "Mathematics for Lovers: Mandelbrot Sets and Julia Sets"? It is a two hour video of fractal computer animation with instrumental music by David Gilmore...fantastic!
Lance, the website you linked to goes along well with the material on the next thread.
Aeolus wrote…
“The law-giver Jehovah then, like the Eagle of Castaneda, issues "commands" by which the Universe (and all its creatures) come into being. We then uphold those commands and, by doing do, add our own energy (will) to them: in other words Jahweh maintains "order" throughout the Creation with our (unconscious) co-operation.
Creating new "commands," new intent, is what real sorcery is all about, and what human existence is all about. To that extent, it may be that we are given the task - the challenge/opportunity of "reprogramming" the Universe - by reprogramming ourselves, and replacing the old commands with new, "refined" (more fully conscious, less predatory) ones.”
These two paragraphs describe pretty well two streams of influence that act on our personalities. The first stream seems to be about fixing the spirit to the physical by attaching it to dogma and beliefs. The second stream seems to have interest in splitting the spiritual from the physical. Because both of these streams are inherent in reality, their interaction within us creates value, rather than the thinking that it’s best to degrade the value of one in order to raise the value of the other (in order to create value).
It is our task to recognize the program of the universe (so as to reprogram ourselves) rather than to think that we are doing any reprogramming of the universe.
The following is (yet another) expression of my over inflated ego, he he.
TheeKultLeeder wrote…
Sounder is addicted to ideas. Sounder, what is knowledge without concepts? Have you ever (in this life memory) beheld knowledge without ideas? It's trippy dude. You should try it.
…… I do appreciate your criticism of me as being an idea-addict. I am quite happy to be tethered to this realm and my re-working of forms relates to this world, rather than any transcendent vision. I value Abraham, Galileo, and Spinoza because they applied their vision to real world changing engagement, between form and reality. I may not care for the results, but these folks at least produced external results from their inner vision.
My model is the result of asking the question. Independent of preconceptions, what is (the true nature of) reality? Of course, the answer is too strange to relate, but when distilled to form ten years later, it came out as; the manifest expression reflects the balance between order and liberty within consciousness, and that all understanding is mediated through form.
My story has been marked by a deep skepticism from an early age. My father was angry and frustrated at not being able to tell truth from lies. He blamed the military and the media. He said they would put out several truths in a row, and then pop in a lie at the end, thereby scrambling his brain.
So I set out to make up my own model for reality. When the time came for me to be introduced to my first child, I had already given much thought to the possibilities within this new life. For both the new person’s life and the quite new stage in the life of my partner the child and me. The model centered on a notion that the proper balance between order and liberty changes with different levels of consciousness. So that while the very young child needs clear directions and consistent boundary conditions, the older child needs to learn the power of their own creative potential. Yet what I saw among my liberal and conservative friends alike was tone deafness in regards to the changing nature of the minds of their children.
It would seem then that my ‘liberal’ friends were more negligent than nurturing. Perhaps they were caught up by the notion that they would not be as ‘piggish’ as their parents were. They, their parents, and my conservative friends suffer from bad timing.
The ‘degenerate form of the strict father family is a cruel absolute authoritarianism’, yes and it is so easy to go there. Many seem to forget that the young person is best raised so as to be able to function without lifelong coddling. The ‘strict father’ does not seem to know when to stop with the strong authority bit. He gets drunk on power.
The objective here is practical rather than otherworldly; it is to reduce or stop the propagation of trauma. Both salvationists and self-abnegationists are trying to impose their self-image protecting beliefs on reality. Reality will cure both tendencies of their pretences.
Thanx for the link, Lance, and yes, fractals and strange attractors (& morphogenetic fields) are what I am talking about, but the old Newtonian mind-set does enjoy a nuts and bolt image to work with!
Sounder – I think that a better dichotomy than spiritual and physical would be tonal and nagual, since the spirit informs matter and vice versa. I hadn't heard of, or thought about, the two streams you mention, but they may relate to something I am currently formulating (or rather, that is formulating through me), regarding the ways in which our “handlers” (the MSs) destroy our racial tonals in order to make us dependent on the collective tonal (species narrative) which they have created for us. This (matrix) is a tonal which is both separate from the nagual (Imaginal realm) and a prison for it, since it both prevents any new influx of Imaginal energy, and traps what little can't be expurgated entirely, co-opting it and turning it from a potential antidote to poison (as in the use of alcohol as a weapon to destroy - by saturating - our shamanic/Dionysian impulses).
“Because both of these streams are inherent in reality, their interaction within us creates value, rather than the thinking that it’s best to degrade the value of one in order to raise the value of the other (in order to create value).”
Afraid I don’t follow this at all. First off, I don’t see these streams as inherit to reality so much as part of the program created by our handlers (old seers) to keep us bound to their version of reality. Secondly, I don’t understand the sentence at all, so I can’t even say if I agree or not.
Curious you bring KultLeeder up – he used to post at this blog, I think, or did once or twice. Didn’t he get banned from RI? Do you recall what happened?
As for ideas vs. knowledge, I also value ideas above all else, at least in the realm of the intellect. I’d say that ideas are like openings or currents that flow from the Imaginal into the rational, and hence are the way imagination takes form in the intellect, and potentially leads to actual manifestation. Ideas rule. Knowledge is more like data gathering, and may be worse than useless unless used to inform the imagination (and not just bolster the intellect), thereby giving rise to NEW ideas.
Also, Kabbalistically speaking, knowledge is not a thing unto itself (Da’ath, the invisible sepiroth), but a relationship between things. In this sense, true knowledge (silent knowledge) may even be synonymous with ideas, as what arise from the nagual, unbound by rational associations, and bring new meanings and values into the tonal.
The other kind of knowledge (which TKL refers to?) is more like an itinerary by which the tonal takes stock of itself—a closed system, a rule-giver.
I appreciate the personal disclosures, but I won’t comment on them as I have only so many seconds in a day to free-associate here. There is no doubt a sorcerer’s blueprint to be found, however, one that provides “real world” context to all you have said.
“The objective here is practical rather than otherworldly; it is to reduce or stop the propagation of trauma.”
Which is done by recognizing the trauma-induced patterns that have led to our own wounds and undoing the damage done to us? By identifying these patterns we can “defy” the parental-social commands that shape and torment us (to drink, self-abuse, distrust, over-intellectualize, emotionally disconnect, whatever). This is like re-ordering the tonal, but to do that, we first need to “unfix” the arrangement of the items of the tonal, and the best way to do this (besides self-examination) is by flooding the tonal with the nagual, i.e., energy of the impersonal and archetypal. The new context which this flooding provides (whether through meditation, sex, shock, psychedelics, or whatever) allows us to de-emphasis the aspects of our tonal (identity) that most contribute to the generational “wound” (social programming), and to re-emphasize the aspects that allow for healing and empowerment to occur.
Onward and downward, and through to the light!
It seems true that the dichotomy is inherent in the very terms, spiritual and physical. Using tonal and nagual to represent the manifest and the pre-manifest does seem to bring out their interpenetrating natures.
Aeolus wrote….
“…regarding the ways in which our “handlers” (the MSs) destroy our racial tonals in order to make us dependent on the collective tonal (species narrative) which they have created for us. This (matrix) is a tonal which is both separate from the nagual (Imaginal realm) and a prison for it, since it both prevents any new influx of Imaginal energy, and traps what little can't be expurgated entirely, co-opting it and turning it from a potential antidote to poison…”
Tonals seem to be a necessary element in order for there to be any expression in the material realm. So they are not bad per se, i.e. you do not like seeing the racial tonals destroyed so that a collective tonal can be enforced, if I hear you right. Then on too your second sentence, man, there is a good bit of content behind those ideas. I largely agree, but the negative framing of this relationship may inhibit the Imaginal from connecting to ‘normal’ representations with the vigor necessary for these strange times. The MSs do not care what you think, they only care how you think it, and they create and promote negative relations between order and liberty because that is what keeps people reaching for ‘transitional’ objects to try to fill the gap between their felt experience and the socially defined reality picture.
Aeolus wrote…
“created by our handlers”
If we can’t handle ourselves, something else will.
“Do you recall what happened?
TKL could sometimes be a bit inflammatory. I like him.
Aeolus wrote…
“I’d say that ideas are like openings or currents that flow from the Imaginal into the rational, and hence are the way imagination takes form in the intellect, and potentially leads to actual manifestation. Ideas rule. Knowledge is more like data gathering, and may be worse than useless unless used to inform the imagination (and not just bolster the intellect), thereby giving rise to NEW ideas.”
Like what you say here; we can take control of the tonal by creating a new psychical conditional system using forms distilled through a deeper connection between the naugal and the tonal, rather than one fraught with artificial tensions. Aeolus, I started the thread, The Virus of Intellect, hoping to light a fire under the paranoiac conformity over at RI. But as I like to keep a low grade fire in the effort at mapping the unconscious, not much is to be said to folk that are too ‘smart’ to allow the fire to even be lit. If I had read your myspace profile (very succinct, by the way) before that thread was started I might have had a better chance at getting input from you (and others). Now I want to forget about that attempt and start over, (without RI baggage, no offence, it is still a better filter or way station than are most other ‘intertube’ stops.) So I will try to pick the good stuff and do a new post on my own blogspot. The material there now was written quite a while ago, and I have no use to add to it simply to hear myself talk. My thing is a social project, an attempt to get ‘horizontal’ path folk and ‘vertical’ path folk to support the positive within each other rather than seeing the other as a natural repository of the negative, while creating a self validating vessel that holds the positive within the particular pole chosen for your allegiance. As Abraham Heschel would say; ‘Halacha without agada is dead, agada without Halacha is wild.’ But I digress.
Aeolus wrote…
“Also, Kabbalistically speaking, knowledge is not a thing unto itself (Da’ath, the invisible sepiroth), but a relationship between things. In this sense, true knowledge (silent knowledge) may even be synonymous with ideas, as what arise from the nagual, unbound by rational associations, and bring new meanings and values into the tonal.”
Exactly, very cool.
Aeolus wrote…
“The other kind of knowledge (which TKL refers to?) is more like an itinerary by which the tonal takes stock of itself—a closed system, a rule-giver.”
His talk of knowledge is of the Gnostic variety I assume.
Aeolus wrote…
“This is like re-ordering the tonal, but to do that, we first need to “unfix” the arrangement of the items of the tonal, and the best way to do this (besides self-examination) is by flooding the tonal with the nagual, i.e., energy of the impersonal and archetypal.”
Agreed, and -hey not bad for a few minutes of free-association, and what follows, also awesome. I am left only to note that you seem to prefer a hotter fire, that’s fine no value judgment involved, maybe these times call for it, I don’t know. So far, I’m sticking to the low grade fire.
i suspect the intellectual level of this dialogue is going to go over most people's heads - in fact much of what Sounder writes here goes over mine. Or maybe I am just too lazy to figure out what he means by "they create and promote negative relations between order and liberty because that is what keeps people reaching for ‘transitional’ objects to try to fill the gap between their felt experience and the socially defined reality picture";
or by: "an attempt to get ‘horizontal’ path folk and ‘vertical’ path folk to support the positive within each other rather than seeing the other as a natural repository of the negative, while creating a self validating vessel that holds the positive within the particular pole chosen for your allegiance."
Say what?
Nor do i follow the Heschel ref: what is ‘Halacha' and what is 'agada'??
As for fire-starting. Guilty as charged. The fires i start tend to burn fast and bright and consume themselves before more fuel can be brought - i.e, scare/piss people off instead of bringing them to their senses. Hence I often get burned by the fires I start, and hence my extreme caution in going deeper into the forbidden waters of revisionist history, or rather, in inviting others to go there with me.
Whatever creates cognitive dissonance is useful for sorcery debate, but if the dissonance is too great, minds shut down rather than open up. This is what happens around "that" subject, even in "freethinker" circles - who act in the precise same way they accuse others of acting when they talk about conspiracy, Ufos, occult, etc: total shutdown to avoid total meltdown.
We all have our limits for tolerating cognitive dissonance. Finding out where those limits lie is what this - occult research - is all about. And then the challenge is moving forward anyway, into those waters.
Aeolus wrote…
Say what?
Nor do i follow the Heschel ref: what is ‘Halacha' and what is 'agada'??
My apologies, my writing can be clumsy at times.
Halacha is the Law (repetition) and agada is spontaneity, in the OT.
My thinking is somewhat like Steiner’s; you have repetition to survive, spontaneity to live and we put them together to love. Or Ahriman as intellect that locks us into limiting form expressions periodically altered by fresh imaginal expressions that will eventually lead to an integrating vision.
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